Moving Beyond Startup Mode for Entrepreneurs with Heather Gray


Ever felt stuck in start-up mode, subscribed to one too many email lists and feeling like your business is slowly going nowhere? I recently had a chat with Performance and Mindset Coach, Heather Gray from who shared some powerful secrets to help you to finally move beyond start-up mode and towards a credible and profitable business that you can be proud of.


Joel: Well thank you for tuning into another episode of and I have a very special guest on the line today. It is Heather Gray. Heather Gray is a Performance and Mindset Coach for business owners, leaders and entrepreneurs at Oh I love that name!

Heather helps her clients move past sharing pithy motivational quotes as a mindset strategy. Oh haven’t we all been guilty of that. She teaches her clients how to put those concepts into action into their own lives. That’s really powerful. Well, thank you, Heather, for joining us.

I just think we’re going to have such a great discussion around this cause because you know we’re often getting stuck with sharing those motivational quotes but struggling to actually ….as you put it, take action and put it into practice.

Heather: Yes absolutely. So much for having me on the show. I’m really excited because I think that part of mindset is moving past the inspiring and motivating and moving towards inspired action and I am really looking forward to talking to you today and helping your audience get there themselves.

Joel: Yeah, that’s awesome. The funny thing is when we’re talking about this I remember seeing one quote that was shared on Facebook at one point but it was it was kind of like the skeleton with fairy wings on saying you know you kind of have to look after yourself first before you go inspiring other people.

Heather: Exactly!

The idea that we have to work ourselves to the bone for our dream and our entrepreneurial pursuits is another myth that really needs to get busted. I think that’s the message that gets sent, that the real entrepreneurs are the ones who were grinding and hustling it out and those are two overused words in this space. It doesn’t have to be that way.

Joel: I like that! So, what you’re saying is that essentially too much hustle can be a bad thing.

Heather: Yes. I think that people don’t like that word is so overused.

You know it’s the thing that entrepreneurs like to wrap themselves up in, it is like the security blanket that they used to feel better about themselves but hustle without intent or direction or specific destination you just end up spinning in circles. It’s good to be a weekend warrior and be working extra hours in the evening when you’re in your 9-to-5 and then going home and working a couple of hours on your side business and your future second business. But if you don’t do it intentionally and with purpose and direction you just end up doing a bunch of things that you nowhere you just feel busy and busy feels like hustle but it’s not getting you anywhere.

Joel: And that’s so true, you know getting stuck in that kind of loop without purpose.

I think we can certainly relate to that. Before we press on I’d love to know a little bit about your background?

Heather: Sure absolutely. Well ‘Choose To Have It All‘ is actually my second business. At the start of my career, I was a clinical social worker and I started in the corporate world running and managing programs for adolescents and families. And then when I decided I wanted something else I moved into a mental health private therapy practice and I ran a successful brick and mortar for about 10 years and in about 2015 or so I just started to feel like my message and what I had to say was meant for a larger audience. That I was better and bigger than small town USA. And I needed to figure out a way to reach more people and I wasn’t going to do that in the brick and mortar space. So I moved to the online space where I started working around mindset issues and performance issues with online business owners and leaders. It just was a natural fit because mindset is the psychology of success. And I spent like you know 15 – 20 years working in the psychology field so it was an easy leap for me. And now I use the clinical skills I gathered early in my career so it really set business owners, leaders and entrepreneurs up for success in whatever business venture they’re encountering.

It’s just lit me up and has made me incredibly happy. Like you said the business is called ‘Choose To Have It All‘. And the reason why I named it that is because like in my bones that my belief is we all can have the lives in the businesses we want but we have to make the choice to do so.

Joel: That’s really powerful, essentially what that comes down to is having or making a choice as well.

Heather: Yes absolutely. It’s this idea of ‘do you have a goal or do you have a plan?’. And I think a lot of times people talk about goals in dreams. They use it interchangeably. But once you decide something is happening and you’re in your 9-5 and you’re not happy and it’s not working for you. It’s not fulfilling you, it’s not taking care of you. It is time to break it down into steps of what do you want to do instead and what are you willing to do to get there. Because it’s not just going to be handed to you. It’s handed you very few lucky individuals but everybody else has to do it with planned-ful, mindful intent.

Joel: I really like that. What I’d like to do is paint a little bit of a picture here. So let’s think about the entrepreneur and the corporate as well – so we’re trying to get out of start-up mode and maybe we’ve taken on a business or a side business or maybe we’ve had a plan and it’s not quite in alignment with us yet because clearly, we’re not able to make the transition. And what I’d like to call it getting stuck in startup mode. I’d love your viewpoint on how to get out of this?

Heather: So I think the first step is when people have started a side hustle and it’s not lining up and the pieces aren’t lining up as they expected. My first question often is, do you know what it is you’re offering? Do you know how you serve and the transformation you’re providing to people through your service or product?

Usually, when businesses aren’t taking off it’s because there are those three things simply aren’t aligned.

And people are doing what they think they should but not what they want to. So they’re not following through with their whole heart their whole beings because they don’t all buy into the plan. They’re trying to follow the model that was laid out by somebody else. That model might not work out for them.

Joel: So essentially the question is, is it your dream or somebody else’s’ dream.

Heather: What happens as soon as somebody decides they don’t want to live in their 9-5 anymore or that they have this idea for a product or service that they really think thinking transforms lives they get really excited about that and it moves them and they get all this positive energy about it and they build themselves up. That is like the honeymoon period. But at some point in time, the honeymoon period ends because you have to start taking action steps. And when people don’t know what the specific action steps they should be taking are they kind of go to the masters, they listen to podcasts like yours or like mine. They listened to other entrepreneurs in the space. They read all the blogs. They pick up every freebie PDF that anybody’s offering to build their list. And they get lost in the weeds of what everyone else is telling them to do versus ‘If am a business owner of this business, what does the business owner need to do right now?’ and identifying themselves as the owner of this business is choosing accordingly – is the biggest way that I help within my job. It’s recognizing that whoever you are personally is going to inform how you run your business but you need to start thinking of yourself as a business owner and make decisions as a business owner would.

Joel: Powerful. I think the key thing from that what you just shared is this idea of not getting stuck in the detail and sometimes the detail that just isn’t necessary. And I love that you just mentioned before around this idea of jumping from one list to another and trying to kind of learn as much as much as you can.

But you know when you’re doing that you don’t necessarily have the right business hat on. Is essentially what you’re saying.

Heather: Yeah.

I think I think too, that the other piece is focusing on just learning the next thing. And so many people fail to launch and fail to thrive in their launches because they try to do all of the things before they pressed to go button and they want the shiny web site … doing the work and then see where the missing holes are for that particular business.

Not every business is going to need a thousand people on an email list before it can go anywhere. Not every business is going to need a suite of social media sites and representation in order to connect successfully with an audience. But so many people get lost in those details. Those aren’t the sexy sassy details that make people motivated to keep working. So then we abandon the idea rather than if they have this idea to coach somebody to a certain transformation, just find that person and start coaching them and seeing the transformation they offer and then they will be motivated to keep going and realize what they need to do next to make the business, a viable idea.

Joel: So essentially it’s like start small, take small action. Rather than waiting to get everything perfect.

That is kind of what you’re saying?

Heather: it’s exactly that. It’s taking each step as it comes and only dealing with what’s in front of you at the moment. So there’s an online business influencer, Marie Forleo and she has this phrase out there that everything ‘figure-out-able’. What I always say is everything’s ‘Google-able’ so if I don’t know the answer, someone else’s already asked the question. So look it up but just that specific question, not the whole darn book. You don’t need everything to get going. If you’re looking how to start up a YouTube channel you don’t need a 27-page ebook you just need to watch a couple of YouTube videos on how to set up a YouTube channel. But so many people want the best option so they read like 10 books on how to set up a YouTube channel and they read all the details and they never press play or record. They just get lost in the keywords and analytics or you know the fancy border or the text or how it looks on mobile and they never press play. That that’s what undermines people because that is just the minutia that makes people feel ineffective like they can’t do it because they’re working on their business but they’re not really working in their business. They’re not actually doing the service or creating a product that they’re envisioning themselves.

Joel: So true. So (much of) what you’re saying here, I can relate to…

I’m going ‘yes I’ve done that in the past!’. ‘I’m so guilty of that’. I think it’s because we all have this challenge.

I’m glad you mentioned Marie’ Forleo because you know she’s provided wonderful stuff but something that I can reflect on there is that you know her website looks amazing, her videos look amazing. But if we put Marie on a pedestal and go, ‘well, I can’t launch my business until my videos look as amazing as hers’ and I think the point that you’re making there is just so poignant that essentially we are not looking at when Marie started, we are seeing where she is today.

So I think, that in itself is such a good point that you’re making that that, let’s be OK with where we are today.

Heather: We can’t compare our first year in business to someone’s 10th year in business. But we do that all the time.

We think that we can’t launch until we look like that final answer rather than having it be messy and perfectly imperfect but authentic and genuine to who we are and where we are in the world. And again it’s this idea that like when you set plans and goals and you say someday I’m going to have that shiny website.

Someday I’m going to have this automated response so people hear from me as soon as they send me an email with an automated message. You’re never doing the thing that you want and that when that process gets slowed, and it gets slowed repeatedly you lose your passion for it and you lose your creativity and staying in the 9-5 seems like the easier simpler answer because you don’t have to work that hard for it. It becomes the devil you know and you never move to the next step. People who want to move out of that like serial startup mode like you were talking about, they need to decide what the next step is and just focus on that. There’s a book and you might know the author is, it’s called ‘The one thing’ (note: by Gary Keller) and all it talks about is just figure out what you need to know next and then answer all the questions when you get to that next step. You don’t learn all the answers now, it’s your wasting time.

Joel: And essentially you’re going to put your mind into overwhelm, right?

Heather: yes.

Every single time and all that does when you put your mind into overload is you get distracted and you get discouraged and you get beat down and the list of things you find out you know get longer and then you feel like you know less and less rather than at some point in time…it started with a passion, it started with an idea. You developed enough for it to feel real to you. Go off and do it, and do the thing and then you can go back and fill in the steps and get the nice website designed and make all your social media images and branding consistent with each other.

But at some point just pressing play showing up and the second piece to it is offering it as a paid product or service. So often the thing that stops people from ever launching their business and staying in that monotonous startup mode is that they never sell, because they think they haven’t earned the right to. Their product isn’t shiny and new. It doesn’t look like Marie Forleo’s fifteen year in business. So they’re just going to offer their stuff for free and then they never become business owners because they don’t see that their business is making money.

Joel: So essentially we’re not putting a value on our service or product or service.

Heather: Absolutely, one of the biggest lessons I really needed to learn when I built my second business as an online business, is I had to stop comparing myself and thinking of myself in the online space as a newbie and I think that’s a mistake. My guess is that a lot of your audience makes this (mistake) because they’ve never really thought of themselves as business owners or online business owners or people who are doing it online. I know some people in your audience I’m sure are just going to work locally or in brick-and-mortars and because being a business owner it is new, they put themselves in the ‘newbie’ category and I did that too, and when I did that I erased 10 years of experience as a business owner and I erased 20 years of experience in a clinical setting. So it was as if I was telling myself and telling the world that I was just starting out when in reality most of your audience is going to have been in the working field for at least five years. They’re going to have accumulated a skill set through work experience or prior education and they’re going to have experience and a skill set that can be valuable to other people. But when they look at their dream and they think I’m just starting out because the dream is new. They erase everything they’re bringing to the table and that’s how imposter syndrome finds a seat next to them. They feel like they don’t belong.

And then they can’t fit in because they’ve created this whole persona that they’re new when the only thing they’re new to this particular business. Not the skill set or the product that they’re offering.

Joel: That is a huge distinction right there.

I think that is so important and valuable because simply you know this idea of having the new label I think it can be really destructive especially if you feel like you’re stuck. Maybe that’s the reason you get stuck because it’s like what has to change or what has to shift for you to remove that new label.

Heather: Yes. Every single time. And I think that you know part of it and the undercurrent here in this discussion is so much of this is puffing ourselves up to have the perfect website, to have the perfect automated funnel to do all of those things is to avoid failure and rejection. We feel like if we set ourselves up for success by looking shiny and new, people will have more respect for us. The other piece of that is when we play small and we identify as a newbie, then we’re avoiding the expectation that comes with not being new we can just write up any mistake we make as ‘well you know all week three months into this’ rather than ‘I have a skill set, I have something to offer’. ‘I have an ability to transform the lives of others through my product or service’. And yes because the business ownership is new I may wobble a bit but I’m confident and capable and competent.

I look at some of that stuff that people claim and the stories they tell of themselves as like this armour that’s protecting them from their perceived failure or rejection rather than recognizing that if you’re choosing an entrepreneurship path if you are choosing a non-traditional path, you are choosing at some point to fail. That’s non-negotiable. So the more you try to avoid it the more you’re slowing down your progress, when you just have to fail and learn the lesson you’re supposed to learn and get on with it.

Joel: I love that – face it, embrace it, and go on the journey.

Heather: Yes and it puts you in control of it and then you’re not a victim to it. It’s not ‘failure is something that happened to me’. It’s ‘failure is something that is a part of what I’m choosing’. You know it’s interesting for me, I’m a huge American football fan. It’s borderline obsessive, to be honest, everyone starts talking about player injuries when they injure their ACL. I’ll hear commentary like ‘look at the great front they’re putting on, look at how they like they just fell and they had a season-ending injury’. ‘But, wow look at that them, they’re coming back in the following fall and they’re ready to go at it again’.

That’s because those players know that injury comes with the territory. So they’re not afraid of it. They are hoping it doesn’t happen and they want to be able to play a full season but they know that when they’re choosing a career path that involves charging their bodies into 300 pound linebackers sometimes your knees are going one way and your ankle will go the other and that’s just the natural consequence of that choice. And the more we can do as business owners we’re empowering ourselves if we’re putting ourselves in the driver’s seat of our own lives.

Joel: Extremely powerful. I love that analogy too it just it just makes so much sense. It’s just like we simply have to step into that identity and embrace it. But that kind of leads into my next question because it’s a little bit around and kind of the theme or flavour of our discussion.

This idea of being in corporate or being in your day job and setting out as an entrepreneur can sometimes have very different identities. How does how does one deal with that and how does one get beyond the idea of maybe the safety of the corporate identity to truly embrace entrepreneurship.

Heather: I think it starts actually with what I was saying earlier.

So if you were planning on, if for example in your are in the corporate world and you’re in the Financial Planning market and you decide that you want to be a coach or consultant for small business owners to help them plan their financial future so that they can be financially strong and stable. The best way to set yourself up for success is just to go pitch yourself to a small business who you think could how and offer it do it, and say hey this is what I spent 15 years learning and doing it. So you can see yourself capable of it. But the other thing is this idea and have you set a goal or have you made a decision. And if you’ve made a decision to deviate and separate yourself from the corporate life you have to have a work schedule and work hours for that and it can’t just be the mindset of when I have time. When I get a free minute. It has to be…

I’m going to get up at 5:30 in the morning three days a week and I’m going to work on this part of my business. I’m going to give up every other Saturday from 9:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. and I’m going to work on this part of my business.

And you’re going to schedule it in and treat it as work like you would in your 9-5 because when you see your self-replicating those patterns… When you see yourself taking it seriously your mindset follows. When you don’t make time for it and you say ‘If I happened to get up early I’ll work on it or if I get home early on a random Tuesday I’ll work on it’. It never happens because you’re not taking it seriously but when your behaviour matches your intent to take it as a credible viable option for yourself, you start to move in that direction. And what happens then is you create specific measurable observable proof of what you’re capable of. You can look back and see six weekends of being a weekend warrior you know three Wednesday evenings I’m putting in the time and doing the cold calling or fill in the blank. But when you’ve done it piecemeal, it feels, piecemeal. And then you never take it seriously and you don’t set yourself up for success.

Joel: Can I reflect on that? I think that’s very important and something that you just said before and what really hit home to me is you actually quoted your work pattern so you know from this hour to this hour I’m doing this. And and I think the act of actually going through that process all of a sudden we’re actually acknowledging the work that we’re doing versus as you said piecemeal I think at the end of the week… I’ve done this before I’m guilty and we all are. You say ‘I have absolutely no idea how much time I spent on this task’ and I think that’s how we can end up in the burnout stage because if as you mentioned if we don’t have that plan, that really strong plan in place and we’re not treating it like a real business then I think that’s kind of how we get into that burnout territory. So I think that’s a really interesting insight and reflection that we keep to a schedule but then acknowledge that as well.

Heather: Yes absolutely because when you make a schedule you’re deciding that it’s happening and you take it seriously. In fact, just this morning I was meeting with my realtor as we get ready to move. And she’s like ‘so what’s the move date?’. And I said ‘Oh I don’t know I said we’re moving cross-country so we’re probably just going to empty everything out’. So whenever I’m done emptying everything out is when we’ll get the stagers in here and we’ll get the place ready and set up. She’s like ‘oh no, don’t do it that way!’.

If you don’t give yourself a deadline and somebody invites you to a party you’re going to want to go to the party more than emptying out your house, you’re going to want to choose something else. But if I give you a deadline you’re going to set yourself up to get it done. And I remember thinking to myself ‘Oh right just like I had to do with my business’ because it’s so true, if you put something on the Sunday schedule, it just never happens.

Joel: Do you think it’s important to schedule downtime as well?

Heather: Absolutely. I think that one of the reasons why people want to leave corporate, in addition to being held back from having time and lifestyle freedom is that it fills up so many hours and it just becomes soul-crushing. And I think people tell themselves a story that when you’re running a business you’re just you’re grinding it out you’re hustling it out because it’s your thing you will never get burnt out from it. And that’s simply not true. But what we do now in how we start our business is how we’re going to continue our business. And I learned this lesson in my brick and mortar because I was building my private practice so if I had a client for example who couldn’t make it… I tried to end my day at 6:00 pm and she said that ‘I can’t get here for 5:00 o’clock, I can get here for 5:30 pm I need to fill the time block because you’re trading dollars for hours in that model.

So certainly I was working till 6:30 pm. Even though earlier in the day someone said ‘Oh I have to be at work for a certain time. Can I come in at 8:00 so suddenly I’m saying yes to that person at 8:00 a.m. and say yes to the person we want to 5:30 pm. Suddenly I’ve created an 8:00 a.m. until 6:30 p.m. day based on the client needs. If we set up our lives based on that, it’s so hard to undo that pattern. Whereas if we recognize for ourself that any credible business has business hours that are not negotiable.

If I need to shop for a birthday gift I can’t go to the local department store and say ‘I know you guys don’t open until 10 am and I got a full day of work or you know I could just grab a quick thing and I’ll be in and out. No big deal’.

And we would never think to do that for a business like a department store. But we ask that of our providers because we’re people and it’s individual and it seems easier to do that than ask a department store. But if we as individual business owners think of ourselves as businesses and set the boundaries, we’re going to know when we’re working and when we’re not. That gives us permission to set up that self-care time. But if we’re just constantly grabbing the dollar, if we’re constantly going for any possible sale, any possible lead, any possible anything, we’re never going to get there not for nothing. You and I are a good example because you’re based in Australia. I’m here in the United States and we wanted to do this interview. And I said listen I had my work day 5 or 6 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. If you can if that doesn’t work for you I know other people who have different business hours and I can hook you up and you decided for yourself that this conversation was important enough that you got up so you have your boundaries to get up at the crack of dawn.

And I had my boundary of when I was willing to work… I had to learn the hard way because it was some time in my first year in my new business, somebody wanted to do a Facebook Live on a Sunday night at 7:00 pm and I was like ‘oh exposure’. And I’m like ‘What the heck am I doing, it Sunday night at 7 o’clock, That’s my family time!’. Why am I just giving that away? And I think it’s really easy to feel like we need to do that and we start taking care of ourselves. But then it’s really hard to dial that back because we teach people how to treat us.

And as soon as we tell one podcast host that we are available at 7 o’clock why are we not going to do the same thing to the next podcast host that asks us or next client who wants to pay us money? I think when we start building our (business) lives based on abandoning our own – that’s where burn out.

Joel: It’s so true.

And you know one thing that I love is the idea of actually making (your availability clear). When we organize this call you said to me ‘here is my availability online’. ‘Pick a time that works for you’. There wasn’t there wasn’t that negotiation of ‘you know maybe I can do this maybe I can I’m not sure, let me check with the family’.

It was clear, it was simple, here’s my availability, here when I’m not available. And I just think that is to make that distinction is so important.

But it also demonstrates your value in saying ‘I need my downtime as well, I need that time off’. So you know I think that was a great lesson in itself and thank you for sharing that. To know when we need to have that downtime it’s just so important.

Heather: Well the other piece of this too is we can’t be expected to be on all that time and when we don’t know when we’re on and when we’re off, our default becomes on all the time. And the natural consequence that happens with that is we stop being present to the people in our personal lives. There are always the ones that end up paying the price. And our relationships pay the price because when we stay on for our business we’re incapable of also staying in our personal lives. You know again using the real estate example because that’s my mindset in like real time, my mini-mindset lab, is all things real estate. The real estate agent was with us and she was trying to sell us on why she would be the best person. She didn’t let go of her phone the entire time because the real estate agent business is so competitive that she doesn’t answer an e-mail the moment it comes someone else gets the sale and I have a cousin that is a real estate agent and I have never attended a barbecue with her without her phone in her hand because that’s the choice that comes with that business.

So people need to recognize that if you want to decide your life, like what your life by design really looks like. And then you build a business accordingly. Because if your client base gets used to you being available when you’re at a barbecue on a Sunday at 3:00 p.m. then that’s when they’re going to bug you because that’s most convenient for them. Whereas if they know you’re a high demand realtor but you demand family time, they’re going to learn to ask their questions and have their needs during regular business hours. We teach people how to treat us.

Joel: And I think that in a sense, that increases your value because you say there’s that degree of scarcity.

‘I’m available at these times’ so it’s that (thing of) valuing yourself.

Heather: Yes.

And it’s so scary to do that. It’s really scary, when you want the opportunity … and I really wanted it because we’re doing the actionable talk. And you’re not asking me to talk in theory when I have the opportunity to give people specific measurable tasks they can do right after they listen to this show. That’s the stuff that lights me up. So I have to be willing to say no to that. And I even offered to other people to you who be able to fill the show instead if you opted not to work with my schedule, I had to be willing to do that. And that is really hard. And it’s really hard for the newbie who doesn’t believe that another opportunity is going to come their way.

And the way I learn, again, I’m learning the lessons myself that, like I think that’s one of my unique selling positions is I think I’ve been through the ropes myself. I remember a time when I was so desperate for exposure and for people to get my name out that I took a high-class interview with the guy who was a real creep and I felt disrespected in the interview. And the Heather I am today would have told him to stop recording and would have withdrawn all permission to record the episode because he was so rude and insulting to me but because I was worried about what the optics would look like or what the messaging would be, I went along with it. So after that, once your skin feels gross, you’re uncomfortable in your own skin cause you’ve given too much of yourself away. You have to promise yourself never to do that again. And to follow up with action.

Joel: That is so powerful and I can visualize our listeners (identifying with this). And what we’re coming back to here is confidence in self, confidence in self to say I’m valuing myself and valuing my services. So, I think just some really good messages here.

And as you said things that people can take away and start doing now.

Now I’m a little bit conscious of time so what I’d like to do (is ask you) can you think of any resources or books that you’d like to share with anyone listening?

Heather: Sure. The book that changed my life is ‘Daring Greatly’ by Brene Brown and I’m sure that one has gotten mentioned on your show a thousand times already. But the reason why I like it is because if we took fear out of the conversation of entrepreneurship I would be out of business. I wouldn’t have a job. Because it really is the main thing people hire me for, sometimes they need help having the hard conversations. But the road to that is I’m afraid of offending somebody. Sometimes they need help managing or leadership but the fear behind that is that they’re going to alienate their team or they need to up level and they’re afraid they’re going to alienate their audience and Daring Greatly really tackles this idea of a leaning into vulnerability, leaning into connection and be unafraid to truly connect. I’ve built my second business and both of my first business was quite successful.

I’m now on my second and both of them have one thing in common and that is referrals and you want to build that know, like and trust factor and that is way more powerful and person to person than through social media. And I think what happens sometimes is when you get that personal and when you get that intimate, you put yourself out there you’re so afraid of rejection. So you need to learn how to do it and to have buy-in into how important that is. And then the next thing I say with personal development books is the best way to learn personal development is to go out and personally develop yourself. Stop reading the darn books and learn by doing it. Just like you don’t know what your business is going to look like. You don’t know what you’re going to look like. And now that I’m building the second business I’m doing it so differently than the first, my story of who I am and what I am capable of is changing now. I mentioned to you earlier in the interview that I started my second business because I felt like I was living below my potential. I don’t feel that anymore. But one of the things I have learned is my potential is really only limited by how big a willing to dream. And I think I learned that in a book I learned that when I got my first invitation to speak and close out a conference. I learned that when a major coaching group wanted my consultation. I learned about myself by getting into the nitty-gritty and figuring it out.

And when we get stuck in stumble and fall, we’re covered in dirt, then we go looking for a book on one person’s advice on how to get out of it until. But we throw ourselves in the sandbox, we’re playing it safe behind the cover of a book.

Joel: I love that ‘one person’s advice’ because otherwise we’re listening to 20-30 if not more. And our inboxes boxes are out of control with opt-ins.

Heather: Yes, guilty!

Joel: Guilty! I think we’re all guilty of that one! What you just said before though was, the real learning was in essentially in the doing, in the action, and I think that’s really powerful because we can get caught up in just reading and getting the theory behind where it where you want to go but not actually put into practice. So a lovely message there and I think that’s that’s really important. What do what we love to do is if people would like to know more about you and the services you’ve got available. Where can they find you? … We shall we go?

Heather: Yeah sure. So even though we just finished saying ‘pick one person and follow that one person’, if you want to add another person to your docket in addition to Joel, you can find my show ‘Business Mindset Mastery‘ or over on iTunes. The people who have Android phones can find me on the podcast app. And then but you also find me on Facebook, I have a group there, it’s called ‘Choose To Have It All‘. We can continue the conversation. I’d be happy to talk to anybody about your show. This has been a fantastic conversation.

Joel: Yes I think there have been so many little gems today ‘ah-hah’ moments.

Is there anything you wanted to say? What you’ve just said before about putting theory into practice was I think one of the great lessons. Before we sign off is there any other message you’d like to leave us with?

Heather: Yeah I think the most important message is that once we figure out who we are, how we want to move through the world and how we want to serve, we get crystal clear on that, every decision that comes after that is based on ‘does this choice get me closer to the person I want to be and the life I want to have and the business I want to run or does it will be further away?’

And when you get crystal clear on that it gives you a formation for making decisions and you can get out of fear and doubt and second-guessing. You can stop reading all the books for a second opinion. You can keep your inbox clean of the PDFs because you’re crystal clear on you, and you can go do your business your way on your terms.

Joel: Oh I love that. That is so very important. Heather, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show, I love your energy and thank you for sharing so much wisdom with us.

Heather: Oh you got it, thank you so much!

Joel: So everyone listening, go and check out Heather at ‘‘ and we’ll speak again soon.

Mentioned resources include:
‘The One Thing’, by Gary Keller
Daring Greatly, by Brene Brown
Business Mindset Mastery (Podcast)

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